----BEGIN CLASS---- [13:26] #startclass [13:26] Roll Call [13:26] Devesh Verma [13:26] Kushal Das [13:26] sankarshan [13:26] Gaurav Sitlani [13:26] Sayan Chowdhury [13:26] Bhavin [13:26] Akshay Gaikwad [13:27] Shakthi Kannan [13:27] s/Bhavin/Bhavin Gandhi [13:27] Ashwani Kumar Gupta [13:27] Onyinye Madubuko [13:27] Anu kumari Gupta [13:28] Okay. [13:28] Abhishek Gupta [13:28] sankarshan, Welcome to dgplug :) [13:28] Sandesh Patel [13:29] Krishnanand Rai [13:29] kushal, Thank you and Durgapur LUG for having me. This is a Friday evening in India. Most fine folks could choose to do other things. They are here and I appreciate the time. [13:29] To the people who don't know sankarshan already, he is my mentor, without whose guidance I could not have done anything in the Free Software world. [13:30] sankarshan, Thank you for taking your time, the stage is yours. [13:30] If anyone has a question, they will type !, you can type next to take the next question. [13:30] next [13:30] Alright. So, a couple of things. I have stress injury on my hands. I type slowly. Sometimes I might transpose characters in words - that's not intentional and I apologize [13:30] Fair? [13:31] Now, a while back I had a long chat with Kushal at Pune and among other things in our meandering conversation - we ended up talking about feedback. [13:31] Yes, please go ahead. [13:31] Some days back there was a tweet exchange and I realized that we could have a bit of conversation about the topic. [13:31] I'd like to ask what the readers today understand by the word "feedback" [13:32] Not sure how the responses get translated here - but would anyone like to volunteer what he/she thinks about the word and process? [13:32] some opinion about something one has used [13:32] giving opinion about a product or service [13:32] That's one way of looking at it. Anyone else? [13:33] Alright - both of these are correct. Feedback is essentially a "reaction" - we use/consume something; see something - we want to provide our reaction to it [13:33] The key difference between feedback and random fly-by comment is that feedback is intended to be a basis of improvement. [13:34] So, when we are providing feedback - we are actually no longer a passive consumer or, audience. Instead - we are an active participant in improvement [13:34] This brings up a point I'd like to ask - has it ever happened that you wanted to provide a reaction and then didn't get around to doing it? [13:35] Yes and No. Depends on the context [13:36] Umm... alright. Assuming that you were inclined to provide feedback - but didn't get around to doing it. What do you think stopped you from completing that workflow? [13:36] the authority is not taking any feedback [13:37] sometimes that person feels I try to point out his/her mistakes always [13:37] I've usually heard variants of the following - (a) what's the point (b) didn't have time (c) no idea if it will be received well (d) could not clearly gather my points and thoughts [13:37] Do you think these 4 might be a good approximation of what stopped you? [13:37] Would you like to add more? [13:37] yes [13:38] (c) in most cases with me. [13:38] Alright. This is good. Thank you for responding ... this will be useful and forms basis of what we have conversation about. [13:38] Also (a) is followed by (c) [13:38] for me (c) and sometimes (d) [13:39] I believe an important part of feedback is about personal motivation. That is, why do *you* feel compelled to provide feedback. [13:39] The personal/I is important because it shapes the kind of feedback which are relevant in any given situation. If you think for a while - can you think of the kind of feedback you usually provide? [13:40] Yes, one example maybe feedback after a conference ends. Like Pycon and others [13:41] for me after a bad service generally [13:41] Right. But when you collate all feedback received - do you often see broad themes. For instance, 1. Critique 2. Gratitude 3. Suggestions ... [13:41] I ask about the themes because the themes are linked back to motivation. What compelled you to spend time and provide feedback ... [13:42] Alright. The reason I asked about themes is that there's a number of ways to slice and dice feedback and create categories. I wanted to present a framework where we talk about 3 broad themes. [13:43] Feedback can be Appreciation; it can be Coaching or, it can be Evaluation. And there's a difference between these [13:44] (sorry had to step away to attend to the door, back now) [13:44] :) [13:44] power cut, BRB [13:44] Let's talk a bit about the last big theme to start with - alright? Evaluation. We often provide feedback in a manner that tends to create a ranking. So, we try to have a baseline and then evaluate the performance/service and such [13:45] I believe the the trouble here is that evaluation is often not the best way to improve service or performance. [13:45] What do you think about the above statement? ^^ [13:46] Alright. Let me twist this up a bit. If code review is a form of feedback - is it evaluation? :) [13:46] true! , the persone might be putting all his efforts [13:47] sankarshan, For me no, unless it is an interview. [13:47] Haha. That is neat. Thank you kushal ! [13:48] Anyone else wants to have a go at the code review = evaluation question? [13:48] yup I think it is more like suggestions. [13:49] True. The places where evaluation as feedback is important and pertinent is when you are taking hiring/firing decisions or, trying to make a choice between situations and such. [13:49] In most cases, in programming as in life (I keep repeating this phrase often, so bear with me) - evaluation as feedback does not have the desired end result [13:50] The often not discussed reason it doesn't have the desired result is because the individual evaluating may not be able to completely free him/her self of bias and prejudice on the topic. Being dispassionate is a high skill [13:50] So, we will keep evaluation as feedback aside in our day to day interactions. [13:51] So, what kind of feedback can code reviews or, just reviews be? Is it Appreciation or, Coaching? [13:51] Again - I ask the group here ... what would reviews be? [13:51] Coaching + getting together the end goal: that is having a better software/product/project. [13:52] coaching? [13:52] Both ? As far as the end goal of feedback is met i.e "Improvise in future" [13:52] coaching [13:52] coaching [13:52] Coaching [13:52] sometimes appreciation also, it depends I think [13:52] It was a somewhat loaded question. I am sorry. It can be both as abhishekg5 mentions. [13:52] Let's talk a bit about this then - fair? [13:53] fair [13:53] Alright. Think about reviews and interactions. It usually involves someone who is a master and another who could be an apprentice. Or, a master and not-a-master. [13:54] A good review is usually in two parts - right? It includes highlighting and calling out the parts that are well done and implemented. And suggestions on improvements which are possible. [13:54] Have you felt that way when your code or work was reviewed for the first time? :D [13:54] Nope. [13:55] I am almost certain that you might have desired that the earth open up and you take a deep dive :) [13:55] Or, perhaps sulked because you thought it was stating that you were a not up to par. [13:56] If you had any of these or, similar - this is normal. And that's fine. The key is to not take this as a personal appraisal. The work is being being reviewed and coaching provided. It takes the coach and the recipient of the coaching to be clear about this [13:57] The key part about feedback that is intended to coach is that it has to be specific. A feedback that is "This is awesome!" sounds great temporarily. But on deeper thinking you might just ask "what exactly was awesome" and "can I repeat that often" [13:57] Have you had this kind of situation? [13:58] Yes, not just for code review [13:58] (hmm... a very silent readership ... did everyone doze off? ;)) [13:59] yes, once it happened when I asked for feedback about my code [13:59] yes [13:59] sankarshan, people are generally silent in the sessions :) [13:59] Feedback that is coaching and is intended to help someone improve needs to be precise. For both the "what worked well" part and the "what could be better". [14:00] This requires you (assuming you are providing the feedback) to think and collect your thoughts. And to write them down. You are required to articulate things clearly and precisely - else what is in your mind will not have the desired postive impact [14:00] Let's digress a bit - how comfortable are you in terms of writing down clear and precise feedback? How often do you have to do it in your daily life? [14:01] I do not do it often, because I get difficulty to put together the thoughts [14:02] ashwanig, does that mean that you often end up stopping yourself from extending feedback? [14:02] less often, but I do it sometimes [14:02] Don't get to do it much often. [14:02] I don't do that , vert rarely [14:02] sankarshan, yes, trying to improve that [14:02] s/vert/very [14:02] rarely [14:03] So, what would help you get yourself to a stage where you can be freely and fearlessly provide feedback? [14:03] rarely i get the chance [14:03] What, in your opinion, can help you become better at this? [14:04] Hmm... such amazed silence :) [14:04] yes we can. by practice may be [14:04] Practising writing/speaking out thoughts/feedback? [14:04] Receiving feedback for ourselves from others [14:04] I think, constant practice will help me become better [14:05] @sankarshan, don't you think that biggest motivation to give a feedback is when someone asks for it , and that will eliminate the chance of any fear and doubts [14:05] I have a couple of suggestions - practising the habit of writing is what can make you lose your inhibitions. However, the ability to make notes everyday on any topic that you feel deserved your time and feedback. That's just the steps you begin with [14:06] yash_b, Aha! This is something I was actually intending to cover at the very end. But let's get to it right away. [14:06] i never give feedbacks untill asked for it [14:06] Now - how do you provide feedback? Do you walk up to the individuals or, email them about your perspective? [14:07] depends on the relation i have with that individual [14:07] yash_b, ACK. That is something I've observed. And it is an effective way too. [14:07] Most of the time talking with them face to face, depends though . [14:07] if its formal , i'd prefer a email , but in case of a friend , going and talking personally does best [14:08] I provide feedback, when asked by the individual/during a one-on-one conversation, I can chip in my feedback [14:08] Talking personally can be more impactful [14:08] also it is governed more by how the recieving party expects it . [14:08] Here's a small tweak I'd suggest that you try and implement. Ask the individual if they would have some time for feedback and based on their acceptance of the situation as a recipient of feedback - go ahead and construct your thoughts to deliver feedback driven by the motivation you have. [14:09] wow [14:09] but if we are too critical the person on the receiving end may not like it right? [14:09] It sounds irrational - but everyone likes to receive feedback. Whether they are mentally prepared to accept it in the correct manner is a different story. [14:09] sankarshan , that was nice [14:10] gauravsitlani, The contextual bit that a feedback is "too critical" is based on how the recipient parses it. Also, the recipient is free to extend time and then do zilch with your feedback as well :) [14:11] If that sounds a bit unfair - it is what it is. That's life. [14:11] no sir, in my experience . Most people are not expecting any feedbacks and even when we ask them politely they often tend to explain themselves . [14:11] I am sure you've had that situation too. [14:12] feedbacks are often interpreted as complains as well [14:12] yash_b, That is not uncommon. I am not going to deny. But the world is not filled with them. And if you begin this way in the channel - you will create a group who can be coach others on how ask for, receive and work on feedback [14:12] Begin small - the impact of beginning small is not to be discounted. [14:13] sure sir [14:13] The onus is however on you - the provider of the feedback - to be clear, articulate and precise. These are skills that you'll have to practice and acquire. [14:13] Right [14:13] (also, please do not use "sir". i am more than happy to be called by my name. everyone does) [14:13] i agree [14:13] sure [14:13] agreed [14:14] So, let me ask this - do you see what it means to create/write feedback that is intended to coach? [14:14] yes [14:14] yes [14:14] yep [14:15] The last one is the easiest - we appreciate an effort, service, work to motivate. We want to improve someone's confidence. And it doesn't require to be specifically tied to have improvement aspects tied in [14:15] i think , it means giving direction , guidance or help someone solve an issue about which they are self critical . please correct me if i didn''t get that right [14:16] The key is - don't make feedback too generic and commonplace. That does not work. [14:16] yash_b, ack - you use appreciation as a feedback method to encourage someone. Offer what is called "honest praise" [14:16] That's all. [14:17] i was just about to add that [14:17] We are 9 mins to close. At some point later I'd like to talk more about writing. Writing is an important habit, a key skill and a way to really exercise the brain. [14:17] So, open floor - questions. Thank you for being so patient. [14:18] kushal, how do we have questionns if there are any? [14:18] People, type ! for questions. [14:18] ! [14:19] right-o. please ask away [14:19] sankarshan, type next :) [14:19] next [14:19] What should I do if someone makes same mistakes even after giving them feedback again and again? [14:20] It feels bad when someone does that. [14:20] [14:20] ! [14:21] ! [14:21] Oh dear! It is indeed bad and it requires you to have an interesting conversation with the person. This conversation, even though feedback, is going to be more of a examination of why the mistakes are being repeated and trying to find another approach to solve this and prevent it from being repeated [14:21] next [14:21] (sorry - response took longer) [14:21] How best should I handle a situation, where an individual does not appreciate your feedback [14:23] :) - this is fun. The key point here is that you entered into a conversation. The recipient then decided that your feedback/reaction was not up to spec. The part that remains is to introspect if the feedback you provided was complete and would enable the recipient to act on it [14:23] If yes, depending on how angsty the situation is - point it out respectfully. Or, just walk away [14:23] that works mdbk ? [14:24] next [14:24] You talked about being dispassionate is a good skill, why do you think so? [14:24] sankarshan, yea:) [14:25] Alright ashwanig - it is natural to be emotionally invested in the process. In fact, if you are providing honest feedback - you are emotionally invested. However, being dispassionate enables you to be objective. And to an extent being more focussed on moving the conversation towards an intended outcome. [14:25] I know - it is slightly orthogonal. But too much emotion often leads to inflammed conversations and arguments. The intent is to achieve and objective. Not a fisticuff :) [14:26] what are your thoughts ashwanig ? [14:26] next [14:26] aha! so we are at the top of the hour and the curtain call is going to happen [14:27] sankarshan, agree :) [14:27] i want to end this with a request - please try to use the sessions in the summer training to write up feedback. perhaps post to the list (check with kushal if that is ok). be honest and free with your inputs. but try not to be generic. [14:28] writing is a great exercise and i am going to plan another conversation on how to become better at writing if that works out in this summer training schedule [14:29] like everyone - i like feedback too. so please let me know whether this was useful in any manner. this isn't the usual tech session. so i am not very certain that we are getting along well [14:29] kushal, sayan - we are past the hour. what is the protocol now? [14:29] sankarshan, I recently realized the power of writing. I wrote a blog on it, it's a 3 min read. If you can give it a read and some feedback on it, it would be great. [14:29] Any more questions? [14:29] next [14:30] sankarshan, The session was helpful [14:30] abhishekg5, please provide me with link email sankarshan at pobox dot com [14:30] abhishekg5, thank you. [14:30] As sankarshan said, make sure to write to the mailing list with your feedback of your training. [14:30] sankarshan, Thank you for your time. [14:30] sankarshan: yeah it was really helpful, thank you :) [14:30] sankarshan, It was a very important topic. [14:31] sankarshan, session helped me to think in proper way about feedback :) [14:31] to everyone - i sincerely appreciate that you chose to spend a friday evening talking about feedback. i hope it was worth it. if you want to write to me separately, the email is there. [14:31] sankarshan, Kushal, I enjoyed the session, will look forward to the session about writing [14:31] sankarshan, Maybe in future you can take more sessions :) [14:31] Before we end the session, a few announcements. [14:31] sankarshan, Thanks, it was a very helpful session :) [14:31] There will be no session next week. [14:32] There will be a guest session on security on 3rd Oct. [14:32] 2nd October we will meet at regular time. [14:32] sankarshan, Thank you once again. [14:32] I am ending the session. ----END CLASS----