----BEGIN CLASS---- [13:30] #startclass [13:30] Hello and welcome to today's session [13:30] Roll call [13:30] md salman ansari [13:30] timonsmith: [13:30] Priyanka Saggu [13:30] Pallav Bhalla [13:30] Gourav Rpy [13:30] kumar prateek [13:30] Manu Shaurya [13:30] C Dharmateja [13:30] Priyanshi Singh [13:30] Bryan [13:30] swiftkiller [13:30] Ritik Raushan [13:30] Anil Khatri [13:30] Razy Kased [13:30] Kanika Dawar [13:30] Pavitra [13:30] Sourabh Deshmukh [13:30] Robin Schubert [13:30] ritwiz sinha [13:30] Ankur [13:30] Akshay Gaikwad [13:30] Bhavin Gandhi [13:30] Saurav Saha [13:30] Sayan Bhowmik [13:30] matorix_ [13:30] Ayush Jayaswal [13:30] Kuntal Majumder [13:30] Kurian Benoy [13:30] <_quiet_child> Vishal Sharma [13:30] Kumar Vipin Yadav [13:30] Mayank Gupta [13:30] orepoala [13:30] Philemon Johnson [13:30] Sourav Moitra [13:31] niraj nepal [13:31] Abhishek Kumar [13:31] Jagannathan Tiruvallur Eachambadi [13:31] Deb [13:31] <_honey_> Honey Bhardwaj [13:31] Yesterday, we had given the link https://dgplug.org/irclogs/mbuf_1stclass.log for you all to go through [13:31] Prashant Sharma [13:31] Sumant Tulshibagwale [13:31] Utkarsh Gupta [13:31] Rayan Das [13:31] Before I open the floor for any questions on the chat log, I want to state few things [13:31] mbuf: I did :) [13:32] akash kashyap [13:32] Pavitra, good; but, please do not interrupt; if you have a question type "!" (without the double quotes), and wait for batul to prompt you to ask your question [13:32] Aman Verma [13:32] mbuf: sorry for the interuption [13:33] My name is Shakthi Kannan, and I will be reviewing few of the foundation course sessions with you all [13:33] As I was mentioning to you all yesterday, it is important to understand the hacker culture [13:34] ! [13:34] Hackers, unlike what has been projected in the media, are actually good people, who are eager to solve challenging problems [13:34] Hey, Folks [13:35] and who want to push technology to the forefront; even today, in any company if you work with Engineering, by "hacking" we refer to working on code or improving it [13:35] In this context, I would like you all to read the following two good references: [13:35] 1. How to become a Hacker by Eric S. Raymond http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html [13:36] 2. Free as in Freedom by Richard Stallman (the founder of the Free Software Foundation) https://www.oreilly.com/openbook/freedom/ [13:36] Reading is an important habit that we want all of you to inculcate, and we will be emphasizing both reading and writing in the training sessions [13:37] So, please bookmark these links and read them as and when you get the time; the earlier the better [13:37] The second thing I wanted to mention is the difference between Free Software/Open Source/freeware and proprietary software [13:38] Free Software enthusiasts like the entire system from hardware to software to be completely open without any vendor lock-in (no proprietary BIOS, OS, firmware etc.) [13:38] The Open Source camp are okay to have some parts of the system to be closed source (like device drivers) [13:38] Freeware is where the binary executable are given for free to the end user, but, the source code is not available [13:39] And proprietary systems are those where the source and the binaries are vendor locked-in [13:39] We are here to learn about Free and Open Source Software only. Ideally, we want everyone to use Free Software, but, we are happy to move people to Open Source Software as a first step [13:40] Thirdly, someone in the mailing list suggested the use of Slack! This is proprietary software [13:41] ! [13:41] And it requires lot of RAM to run as well. So, it is totally not applicable in this context. [13:42] A number of people here use mobile phones and Internet connectivity can be slow, and hence text chat is optimal. There is a reason why we use it for the training, and it has been successful for over a decade. Otherwise, we will still not be here [13:42] The next point is about top-posting. When we asked people to reply to the mailing list, all of you (except a handful) did top-posting. [13:43] In mailing lists, we expect you to use interleaved, trimmed, bottom posting only. [13:43] The mailing list posts are archived and there are web interfaces that allow you to browse through them [13:43] This is the dgplug Users archive page http://lists.dgplug.org/pipermail/users-dgplug.org/ [13:43] The following is an example of a top-post (picked randomly) http://lists.dgplug.org/pipermail/users-dgplug.org/2019-June/001577.html [13:44] Most of you have replied like the above, where your reply is above the previous sender [13:44] In exams, you write the answer below the question, and not above the question. Similarly, you should quote whatever the previous person has sent, and reply below it [13:44] See how nicely this person has replied http://lists.dgplug.org/pipermail/users-dgplug.org/2019-June/001583.html [13:45] This is called interleaved, trimmed, bottom posting. [13:46] There is a good example available here as well in our documentation https://summertraining.readthedocs.io/en/latest/communication.html [13:46] next [13:46] Is there a way to highlight the admins text in this chat so that it is easier to scan to read their msgs? [13:46] Or should I search duckduckgo? [13:46] rkased, what do you mean by "admins text"? [13:47] like I think you are admin, @ [13:47] you or kushal, as example [13:47] rkased, we are know as "Ops" people, or Operators who have special privileges [13:48] rkased, we like to maintain a good signal-noise ratio in the channel, and sometimes there are spammers who may attack IRC servers; so we are there to protect the channel [13:48] as mentioned yesterday, people who cause such DoS attacks, or steal passwords are called crackers [13:49] There is a Python and Perl script irclog2html that can convert IRC text message to HTML if you want to read them in the browser. For example: https://dgplug.org/irclogs/2018/Logs-2018-06-21-14-00.html [13:49] Either you can search the HTML page, or use your text editor to search for the IRC nick to browse through the chat logs, or use tools like grep [13:49] next [13:50] Was asking about free/open-source alternative to slack messenger for communication? [13:50] ! [13:50] katek, there are Free/Libre and Open Source messengers available as well; just that IRC has been there for decades, and we prefer to stick with it [13:51] okay [13:51] katek, we are not against commercial business; we are happy to support companies that use Free/Libre and Open Source Software to make money; just because we are giving the software free does not mean we do not make money out of it [13:52] next [13:52] mbuf: How you manage to type so fast and browse required links immediately? [13:52] sourabhdeshmukh, practice [13:52] mbuf: ok. [13:53] [13:53] sourabhdeshmukh, I use the dvorak keyboard layout (not qwerty) and it does not cause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetitive_strain_injury (RSI) for me [13:53] QWERTY was designed for typewriters, and manufacturers blindly copied that to computers [13:53] You can read my blog post on the same http://www.shakthimaan.com/posts/2013/01/19/dvorak/news.html [13:54] mbuf: Thanks for the link :) I will go through it. [13:54] In this training, we want you to develop both technical and non-technical (soft skills), and we want all of you to learn to touch type [13:55] In the first few sessions, as we go through many of the foundation sessions, you will learn about all these skills [13:55] There are good Free/Libre and Open Source Software that you can use to practice touch typing (typing without seeing the keyboard) [13:55] GNU Typist https://www.gnu.org/software/gtypist/ [13:56] Klavaro http://klavaro.sourceforge.net/en/ [13:56] Every day you should practice for at least 30 minutes with these tools. They have exercises. And I do not use the mouse. [13:56] next [13:57] So, are there any questions on what has been discussed in the mbuf_1stclass.log? [13:57] ! [13:57] next [13:57] ! [13:58] How Free/Libre differ from Free/Open-Source? or both are same? [13:59] ! [13:59] ! [13:59] imkaka, you should read this article https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html [13:59] next [13:59] Everyone here talks about importance of blogging. How frequently we should blog and on what topics? [14:00] django_master, Stephen King (the writer) says the ratio of reading to writing is 10:1 [14:00] django_master, if you read 10x, then you will write a 1x piece [14:01] mbuf, amazing answer [14:01] django_master, writing is an important habit in our culture, and we want everyone to write, get it reviewed by others as well [14:01] ! [14:01] django_master, it is useful documentation not only for you, but, for others as well [14:02] I will encourage every one to read this Stephen King's book "On Writing" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Writing:_A_Memoir_of_the_Craft [14:02] he talks a lot about writing fiction, but, the practices are very good; I will not give away the answer, but, will let you all read it [14:03] Try to write at least one blog post per week; that is a good number [14:03] of course, if you are working on a massive piece, you can take your time on it [14:03] documentation is as important as writing code, and we emphasize that a lot; so, if you have good writing habits, you will do well here and in life; otherwise, start working on it [14:03] next [14:04] My quesion is from mbuf1stclass.log. How the dial-up connnection and broadband connection affects the email? [14:04] kaendagger[m], working people travel a lot, and connection may not be smooth all the time; we are more important on the content, rather than the presentation [14:05] kaendagger[m], so, using plain text, like what we have been using here, has more importance than fancy text formatting [14:05] kaendagger[m], it does not mean, we do not want all that; we do use it in presentations, when the bandwidth allows, but, when you want to convey an important message or information, plain text is preferred [14:06] and yes, a lot of us travel a lot, meet in conferences, give talks, work on projects, meet new people, and be part of the community [14:06] next [14:06] Is there an alternative to these resources "you can use pastebin.ca or rafb.net for posting your logs/error/outputs" that you can recommend? Those two seem to be out-of-service. [14:06] ! [14:07] rkased, there are plenty of others; you should try using a search engine [14:07] rkased, as kushal mentioned yesterday, we will try not to spoon feed, but, will guide you, because we want you to be an independent thinker and problem solver [14:08] rkased, so yesterday there was a link given on how to ask smart questions, http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html [14:08] kaendagger[m], also https://summertraining.readthedocs.io/en/latest/communication.html#do-not-write-html-emails [14:08] it does tell you to do your homework, search online, and then use different communication channels before asking us the question [14:09] we are not interested in the answer, but, we are more interested in your thought process, as to what steps you have taken to solve the problem [14:09] this is the hacker mindset, and culture that existed since the early MIT (US) days [14:10] this is covered in the Free as in Freedom book that I had mentioned earlier. If you instead want to watch a movie, you can watch http://revolution-os.com/ [14:10] There is also the "The Code" Story of Linux documentary [14:10] next [14:11] How do we develop the habit of critically thinking on any stuff? I believe working in an open source community require a lot of critical thinking and understanding of the problem on hand. [14:11] snbk97, correct! one needs to be proactive, agile, and work har [14:11] *hard [14:11] snbk97, and most importantly, one should not be afraid of failure [14:12] snbk97, as I mentioned, it is okay if you do not know the answer, but, we really appreciate what efforts you have taken in order to get to the answer [14:12] snbk97, if you told us that you tried approach A, this is the result; approach B, this was where I got stuck, then we know that you have made the effort, and we are happy to help [14:12] snbk97, but, just asking a question without doing a homework will be piped to /dev/null [14:12] next [14:13] when we receive an answer to our question during these sessions, should we reply with thanks as well as other confirmations or not? as I can see it add a lot of noise to the discussion. I want to say thank you to each reply because it is so helpful [14:13] Also, be consistent. [14:13] rkased, you can use EOF (end-of-file) or EOM (end-of-message) [14:13] rkased, so far there has not been much noise; you just need to get used to IRC discussions [14:14] next [14:14] ! [14:14] ! [14:14] ! [14:14] I also want to mention my book that I have written for people getting into Free/Libre Open Source Software that I would like all of you to get a copy and keep it handy as reference: http://shakthimaan.com/what-to-do.html [14:15] ! [14:15] i second that notion ^ [14:15] ! [14:15] as a homework, I will ask you to write a book review in your blog post with a picture of you with the book [14:15] next [14:15] Are the nicknames with '@' in the beginning, 'the operators' you mentioned? [14:16] kanikadawar5, people who come from Slack have the notion of using '@' to mention a particular nick name; so they might be using the same style [14:16] EOM [14:17] kanikadawar5, IRC chat clients highlight your nick if people use your name; you can choose the colour in your IRC client settings [14:17] next [14:17] suppose we are doing a Django project then what I am supposed to write? I should write step by step like " I created this folder then this file" or just a summary. [14:17] ! [14:17] shivam2704, write where? [14:17] Magic mirror says in blog. [14:17] shivam2704, please ask meaningful questions. [14:18] shivam2704, the magic mirror will not work everyday. [14:18] shivam2704, you can document the steps that you followed in your blog, so that, anyone who is new to Django can follow that [14:18] shivam2704, but, the Django documentation should be the single source of truth for such procedures [14:19] test [14:19] shivam2704, we will have sessions on writing; it also depends on whom you want to write for, and what you want to convey to your readers [14:19] next [14:19] I couldn't get an clear idea about which site should we use to share error or results [14:19] ! [14:19] pastebin or something else? [14:19] deadcyph3r, why don't you use a search engine to find what available alternatives exist, and tell us the answer? [14:20] next [14:20] thanks [14:20] i have read your book it is very helpful and written in very concise ,i wanted to ask you how you have cover every fine detail in your book in limited page [14:20] Its cleared in other questions EOM [14:20] sap143, please wait for your turn. [14:20] kaendagger[m], okay [14:20] next [14:20] i have read your book it is very helpful and written in very concise ,i wanted to ask you how you have cover every fine detail in your book in limited page [14:21] sap143, writing is an art, and it takes practice to do it well; the more you write, the better [14:21] On Wednesday we have a full session on writing [14:21] sap143, with experience and persistence, you will get there; we are here to guide you, if you want to take that [14:21] sap143, jasonbraganza has been helping a lot of people here in writing [14:21] next [14:21] How to get started with an open source project that you are interested in but, believe that it is beyond your current skill level ? [14:22] Yesterday you recommend some other search engine , not google ! Why ? [14:22] sumii, Do not ask out of your turn. [14:23] xw19, you have to list the skills that are required, and then see what resources (books, courses, blogs, etc.) are available for you to acquire those skills [14:23] xw19, and then you can take small beginner tasks in the project to start with, and work with a mentor [14:23] xw19, it is divide and conquer algorithm [14:23] next [14:23] Yesterday you recommend some other search engine , not google ! Why ? [14:24] sumii, we will explain this later. [14:24] In depth. [14:24] sumii, in our culture, we care a lot of privacy and security, and we always recommend using Free and Open Standards; but, as kushal mentioned we will have sessions on them [14:24] next [14:24] ! [14:25] next [14:25] ! [14:25] kushal will continue from here as he has important things to address as well [14:25] I will also answer questions as needed [14:25] Frameworks like django has made writing software applications easier ...but we miss the fundamentals of the language..how to cover that [14:26] zarnigma, you will need to read how the frameworks are written; reading code is important and is part of the day-to-day job [14:26] we have the pressure of getting things done...and learn the fundamentals as well..how do we manage that? [14:26] zarnigma, if you are a developer, you must read and learn from well written code [14:27] zarnigma, it comes down to time management; you need to budget your time accordingly between learning and working [14:27] next [14:27] In this context, everyone here is a student; while we may be experts in one field, we also attend sessions as students [14:28] Mentors will be there be individual projects or community projects?? [14:28] we are pretty much a flat structure, and we learn from each other [14:28] katek, both [14:28] [14:28] We expect the same humble mindset from everyone; only then will you have the urge to learn [14:29] zarnigma, let me try to give you the answer using a different point of view. [14:29] zarnigma, do you want cricket? [14:29] the attitude to always seek for more information, knowledge is much appreciated here [14:30] s/want/watch [14:30] yes i do [14:31] zarnigma, How do you think players like Virat or Rohit live their lives? They have pressure of scoring runs in the match/tournament, and they will have learn new skills and become better physically and also be good at what they know already. [14:31] zarnigma, What do you think is the answer? [14:32] ! [14:32] should be a balance of work and learning [14:32] those extra hours of efforts [14:33] Exactly. [14:33] likr @mbuf mentioned earlier..it must have been about time management [14:33] That goes to any form of work/art everything. [14:34] David Beckham used to have separate practice sessions just to perfect free kicks [14:34] sometimes we as beginners dont even know what things are there to learn [14:34] ! [14:34] You may not be able to play like Virat, but, if you spend enough time practising and with the better folks, you will yourself become better. [14:34] zarnigma, that is why this program takes you through the basic steps to lay the foundation for you to build your career on [14:34] zarnigma, that is what we are trying to help. [14:35] thanks to you guys for this great initiative [14:35] zarnigma, at the same we want you think, just because someone is paying $200k per year, it does not mean you go and write code which will be used to identify and kill people. [14:35] If you work hard, you will have a choice in your career. [14:36] next [14:37] Another example is that you need to have at least 1500 hours of flying experience to become a commercial pilot [14:37] Any suggestions on where we can find mentors? I only came across mozilla which has mentored tags, any other similar open source projects that welcomes newbies? [14:37] So, you can see how many "productive" hours you need to spend with a computer to gain experience to master your line of interest [14:38] ! [14:38] nosetrex, Most of the projects have mentors, you have to go and talk to them. [14:38] Everyone: please read this link at night https://www.norvig.com/21-days.html [14:39] next [14:39] How to handle impatience while learning, this is something I face alot and that affects my learning, I would love to listen from your experiences. Sorry, if this goes beyond our topic of discussion. [14:40] shaur, you need to ask yourself why you are doing this? if you are conscious says that it is for your benefit, then, irrespective of what the odds, you will learn to finish the task in hand [14:40] shaur, + it takes time. [14:40] shaur, till school days we are learning in a different way. [14:41] shaur, the difference between the champions and players is that champions endure; sure, they may fail, but, they do not give up and work hard, consistently to achieve their goal [14:41] shaur, The difficulty of a task is irrelevant, if it’s vital to your success. ~ Ed Latimore [14:41] shaur, so, the question is whether you want to give up, or work hard to achieve whatever goals that you set [14:42] shaur, the choice is yours [14:43] Thanks for the answer, I've noted. [14:43] shaur, if you are stressed, you might want to do some physical exercise; it helps [14:43] next [14:43] shaur, working out can be refreshing [14:43] i did not get a clear idea that what should i do next, do i have to make a project? if yes, then where has to make it and through which software? And what the blog is? what to write in the blog? [14:44] SSahid, Thanks for asking, we will have full sessions on blogging etc. [14:44] SSahid, please wait for the first few days. [14:44] next [14:44] Okay [14:44] SSahid, you work on a project that interests you [14:45] SSahid, but, right now the focus is on communication and essential tools [14:45] I gave this URL last night https://summertraining.readthedocs.io/en/latest/communication.html , any questions on this? [14:45] ! [14:46] and thanks [14:46] next [14:47] in regards to documentation and code. How does Agile methodology fit into that discussion? [14:47] rkased, that question does not fit with what we are discussing right now, may be we can discuss that later. [14:47] you mentioned the importance of documentation [14:47] ! [14:47] next [14:48] What does refer the HTML E-mail? [14:48] SSahid, Do you know what is HTML? [14:48] yes [14:49] SSahid, so by default most of the email clients send out emails which are written in HTML, means it can have code hidden in it, or bad links, which can cause some malware to attack your computer or phone. [14:49] ! [14:49] That is why we say do not write or read HTML based emails, try to always use text based emails. [14:49] next [14:51] kushal: just wanted to know as to how do you manage time if you have multiple important committments for the day? [14:51] ! [14:51] Could i got understand HTML email by seeing it? [14:52] gargantua_kerr[m, for example I would love to watch cricket match right now, but, this is more important, so I am doing this and choosing not to watch cricket. [14:52] Or a mobie. [14:52] * movie [14:52] SSahid, please ask in turn. [14:52] gargantua_kerr[m, you will have to choose, which one is more important [14:52] next [14:53] ! [14:53] Can you please explain the concept of text based emails? [14:53] Sumant, do you know what is a text file? [14:53] Yes [14:54] so a text email is where you are sending such plain text. [14:54] Oh, got it [14:54] Thank you [14:55] next [14:55] Could i understand the HTML E-mail by seeing it? [14:55] SSahid, Slide #13, http://www.shakthimaan.com/downloads/glv/presentations/mailing-list-etiquette.pdf [14:55] Yes, but, that also means you already loaded all the things on the email and you can not easily figure out any random links in that email. [14:56] ok thanks, EOM [14:57] next [14:57] It is important to understand history. [14:57] Here is task for tonight https://kushaldas.in/pages/hacker-ethic-and-free-software-movement.html [14:57] Read this [14:58] and then read this log https://dgplug.org/irclogs/2017/Logs-2017-09-20-15-56.txt [14:58] Will help you to read and see historical things from a different point of view. [14:58] ! [14:58] next [14:59] To manage my calendar better, what is a good placeholder for length of each session? [14:59] 5 hours [14:59] rkased, ^^ as jasonbraganza said [14:59] rkased, and another 5 hours to do homework [15:00] sounds good, thanks EOM [15:00] I have to be very honest, the way you all have less questions on a few topics, kind of scary in my mind. [15:01] I am sure many other folks present here thinking the same. [15:02] During this weekend make sure that you have watched this documentary https://summertraining.readthedocs.io/en/latest/beforestart.html#watch-the-internet-s-own-boy [15:02] If no other questions, we can end the session now. [15:03] next [15:03] kushal, I believe he was wrongly punished for what he did (internet's own boy) ----END CLASS----